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Wenger world’s third best coach of 21st century

Arsenal Manager Arsene Wenger

Arsene Wenger has been voted in third position by the International Institute of History and Statistics of Football in the World’s Best Coach of 21st Century.

Manchester United’s Sir Alex Ferguson tops the list with Jose Mourinho in second position.

The votes are taken on an annual basis with jurors coming from around the world. Describing their process, the IIHSF says on its website

The IFFHS has devised an equitable method for establishing the The World‘s best Coach of the 21st Century. From the annual two world rankings of the coaches (a result of the world votings) the IFFHS will take into consideration the “Top 20″ for each year and allocate points to each place. So the first-placed receives 20 points, the second-placed 19 points, the third-placed 18 points … and a point for twentieth place. If the annual world ranking comprises more than 20 coaches, then the coaches from 21st place onwards receive no points. If the annual world ranking comprises fewer than 20 coaches (based on the fixed rules), no points will be awarded for the unoccupied places.

Full list [top 25] which reads like a list of Chelsea managers:

  1. Sir Alex Ferguson [180]
  2. Jose Mourinho [174]
  3. Arsene Wenger [165]
  4. Fabio Capello [147]
  5. Vicente del Bosque [124]
  6. Marcelo Alberto Bielsa
  7. Guus Hiddink
  8. Carlo Ancelotti
  9. Luiz Felipe Scolari
  10. Rafael Benitez
  11. Joachim Low
  12. Marcello Lippi
  13. Frank Rijkaard
  14. Sven-Goran Eriksson
  15. Karel Bruckner
  16. Pep Guardiola
  17. Roberto Mancini
  18. Ottmar Hitzfeld
  19. Carlos Alberta
  20. Dunga
  21. Otto Rehhagel
  22. Giovanni Trapattoni
  23. Bert van Marwick
  24. Carlos Bianchi
  25. Muricy Ramalho
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  • Scz

    Get off your fucking soap box!

    • ladyarse

      Make me

      • Player CIrcle

        I am a footballer and Iblove to rape defenders, over and over AGAIN!

        • Demostines

          You are an idiot who needs to get some perspective in life….footballers are very insignificant in the grand sceme of things….

  • http://twitter.com/DomMang Dom Mangles

    well said LA

  • http://twitter.com/fatsteve Fat Steve

    Is it wrong to use a consensual sex analogy? ie (we just got f–ked by that ref)

    • http://twitter.com/sandy_paper Sandy Paper

      playing devil’s advocate here, but then it wouldn’t be consensual would it, because we didn’t agree to the act, so rape would be the more appropriate analogous word…

  • scottpuffin

    It’s a ‘street’ word. It’s no big deal. But I’m not a woman, and I haven’t been raped, so I’m probably not in the best position to judge.

    • ConcernedFemale

      Men get raped too.

    • Raja

      It’s no big deal ? I feel sorry for you

  • rimz

    “If you don’t care that every time you use the word outside of its proper context you diminish both the severity of the act and the impact it has on the woman and those who love her then I doubt there is anything I can say to make you stop”I refuse to believe that a woman could seriously be offended by the use of the word rape in the incorrect surroundings. If they are, they’re seriously fucking stupid and perhaps they should kindly stop being so sensitive.regards.

    • ladyarse

      There’s only one ‘stupid’ person around here and that’s you.

      But thanks for letting us know which category you’re in, now troll on.

    • http://twitter.com/laurielaker Laurie Laker

      you exemplify the very sort of idiocy-loving populous that this piece was aimed towards. you utter cretin.

    • Sahil

      How would you like if your balls were castrated & people around you were casually talking about the action as if its no big deal and asking you to be cool about it?

    • SensitiveWoman

      Try being raped from when you were 5 to the age of 9 and have that word hurt you everytime you read it. Yeah I’m just being sensitive.

    • Globalgooner

      You are a prick

    • clem

      Cool, why don’t you keep teling us about how people should feel regarding terrible things they have experienced?

  • Valarauko667

    @Scz: The soapbox has her name on it.

    • ladyarse

      And what’s your point? All blogs are soapboxes. Well done for noticing.

      • Valarauko667

        Just trying to point out the ridiculousness of someone telling you not to say something on your own site.

        For the record, I agree with the article.

        • ladyarse

          Apologies :)

  • fLoYd

    If we lose Samir Nasri & Cesc Fabregas I can see us getting raped next season

  • Raja

    Thought this would be something we would all probably agree on ..apparently not

  • http://radioprotector.tumblr.com Andrea

    Thank you for this, you’re awesome.

  • Paul Jenkins

    How about when other words are used out of context? For example ‘We are playing Barca tomorrow, they’ll murder us’ – ‘I could kill for something to eat’ – ‘bugger that’ etc etc?

    • ladyarse

      How about I addressed that in the actual post?

      • Paul Jenkins

        Oh right, so you did. Sorry I got bored after the 1st sentence

        • ladyarse

          Yet you’re still lurking around. Interesting.

  • guvno0or

    Do me a favour love

  • Karenslater1312

    I agree whole heartedly with your blog and keep up the hard work

  • RobinYourPersie

    “I won’t speak to the murder, I believe that comparison is too far-fetched, perhaps because the use of the word ‘murdered’ has become common place, or perhaps because it is used in other areas of life to describe something extreme and not just football.”

    According to your logic we should use the term ‘rape’ more frequently and it more areas of life then.

  • ColemanP84

    if people have a problem with the piece why do they read?

    • Cappa113

      You don’t know until you read *smh*

  • Rb123

    OK so what about being beaten up? People getting stabbed or shot? Do they deserve less compassion? To be fair, most men have been beaten up at some point in their lives or been in a serious fight. If you’re only bothered about violence that affects women, you’re selectively caring.

    • ladyarse

      Sigh

  • Me

    Rape is a terrible social problem that destroys and in lots of cases physically ends many women’s and men’s lives – the seriousness of this should never be downplayed and the punishment mooted out is never enough in my opinion however when this term is used in general conversation in football I do not beleve it is done to disrespect rape victims or down play the seriousness of the crime – its just a bit insensitive.

  • reded

    i completely agree ladyarse.

    i agree because of the context of the word it just doesnt make sense to me to hear or read that a team or player have just been “rape”. chris rock in one of his comedy shows said “its not the word thats used its the context its used in”. this was when talking about words like n***** or f****t or gay which i agree with. but rape can only mean one thing. it only has one meaning.

    with the words murdered or battered to me they make more sense to describe a player being beaten. or a team being completely torn apart. beaten is like the word battered imo. havent heard pundits use  ”rape” but have heard them say “oh walcott has just beaten his left back there”.

    also i think a lot of men will agree with you. any man that has a mum, sister, daughter, aunt, wife or female friend they care about. if they do how hard do men feel it is to support their family or friend?

    • Guest

      Rape does not only have one meaning. It has one legal meaning, which is the crime of rape. It has alternate meanings. A quick look in an online dictionary will save you making such silly claims.

  • Lad

    Nonsense. I’m sorry, but ‘murder’ is fine ’cause it’s more commonly used? Inconsistencies like that are unacceptable in any argument. Most people using the word ‘rape’ in a footballing context wouldn’t commit rape, and would be disappointed if rapists didn’t get incarcerated and punished for their crimes. Men get raped fairly frequently in jails and such, and the use of the term in football is more akin to such happenings than to any other.

    If you want to get offended by stuff like that, it’s really down to you.

    • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

       That’s not an inconsistency, it’s a nuance. Many arguments have them because in the really world issues aren’t simple.

      Words lose their power over time, usages change, terms become normalised. For example, there are words that were once shocking and unacceptable that are relatively commonplace on tv. “I’ll bloody kill him!” is normal usage. No one connects it to the concept of murder. “Ooh, Barton’s raped him there” is not close to being common usage of the word. That makes the context entirely different.

  • Cappa113

    This is why i don’t follow ladyarse. Even though i agree, the way she writes is so… Whats the word?

    • Guest

      Bigoted.

      • ladyarse

        Do you even know what that word means?

        • Guest

          An obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinion

  • Cid

    No, sorry, murder is worse than rape, so your dismissal of the former term is bogus.

    Besides, she was asking for it dressed like that.

    • Jade

      Yeah a woman asks to be raped. Women can dress however they like. If it’s provocative so be it. It doesn’t mean she’s asking for it.  How about a little self control?

    • Lynnz_Elis

      OH my gosh!!! Are u serious?! No one on earth would ever ask to be raped! It’s ridiculous! And you know if a rape victim hears u say that the victim will then start blaming themselves and will feel even worse about themselves although it was not their fault at all
      coming back to the topic I think people should learn how to feel for others,1 day it’s them the next day you don’t know what will happen to u,imagine if the rape victim was ur child or relative or u yourself , would u like to here that word everywhere u go reminding u of that incident? Not that i’m hoping it happens to u or anyone infact.. Come on now, be more human!!

      • Lynnz_Elis

        I meant “hear” not here,my bad!

  • Linguaphile

    It’s worth mentioning that the word ‘rape’ does not necessarily refer to the sexual crime. 

    The following sentences are perfectly acceptable:

    ‘Our rain forests are being raped.’
    ‘We returned to the village to find that it had been raped.’

    Rape can refer to destruction, desecration or ransacking. I probably wouldn’t use the word myself but people’s ignorance of its other uses is possibly the reason they take offence. 

    • http://twitter.com/fatsteve Fat Steve

      This is ludicrous and untrue, give me a single example in print of your usage.

      • Linguaphile

        Here’s google search with over five million cases of the use of ‘rape’ in relation to rainforests alone: 

        http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=rain+forest+raped&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7348c93fcaa167c0&biw=1249&bih=630

        It could have taken you seconds prove yourself wrong. 

        • http://twitter.com/fatsteve Fat Steve

          In those examples the term ‘rape’ is being used in exactly the opposite of the way you imply. They are saying it in terms of something that is ruining people’s lives, not in the context of a game.

      • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

        Or you could google it and find your own, of which there are many. 

      • http://twitter.com/#!/Darren_V_ Darren_V

        Open a dictionary, find the word rape, and read what the definition is. You will find that he is correct.

        • ladyarse

          Yeah, the definition of rape is what is important here, not that most rape victims will tell you that just hearing the word is unbearable.

          Let’s focus on semantics shall we.

          Some of the responses on this piece are simply jaw-dropping.

          • http://twitter.com/#!/Darren_V_ Darren_V

            I beleive I am only setting the record correct, in that there is more than one usage of the word ‘rape’, even if the other meanings of the word are seldom used. And you have a problem with that?

          • ladyarse

            I have a problem with semantics being used to detract away from the original point. As you state yourself, the other meanings are seldom used, so why bring them up? There is unlikely to be confusion over the definition I was talking about and the fact is, whether other meanings are available or not, if you say ‘rape’ today the majority of people think of sexual assault.

          • Brown

            it depends on how one says it…if one says ”I got raped in my math exam”, majority of people will NOT think of sexual assault

          • ladyarse

            But you’ll find that if someone in the vicinity has been raped and hears that, their rape will be exactly what they think of.

          • Linguaphile

            Semantics aren’t being used to detract away from the original point, they are being used to show your point is flawed. 

          • Linguaphile

            Of course the meaning of words are important.

            I’m sure there are many ex-drug addicts and their families that coil and wince at the word ‘crack’, but there is one in the wall above the computer and I don’t see why I should use a different word to describe it.  

  • http://twitter.com/fatsteve Fat Steve

    Approx 230 people are raped in England and Wales every day. The fact that that gets less attention than the score of a football match is enough for me not to use the word ‘rape’ casually. 
    Where LadyA and I differ is I wouldn’t go so far as to tell someone else what words are ‘acceptable.’  I would consider the person who used that term a sociopath, and to use a technical term, a massive douchebag, but I think it’s important to let people say what they want, so you can accurately judge the type of person they are.

  • Sunil

    Dear Ladyarse,

    I am delighted with this masterpiece that you have written. I’m a psychologist and work with many women who have experienced sexual abuse many of whom cannot use the word rape due to the overwhelming emotions it evokes. I am appalled that such a term can be used to describe anything but forcible sexual assualt. I am even more shocked by some of the responses you have had – sad indeed.

    Keep up the good work.

    Sunny

    • reded

      im learning to be a psychologist and have learnt about some of the work you probably deal with.

  • gooner

    This is a piece best suited to a ladies lunch, i am a victim myself and male! the fact is that everything seems to offend someone somewhere nowadays and it gets very tedious, the context in which things are said is very relevant as to whether or not a word or phrase is acceptable and im sure there is no malice meant with this word when used in terms of describing a sporting event etc. posting this article was an error of judgement as you must have expected a lot of these responses when issueing it to the wider public rather than in a small group of likewise thinkers.
    Regards

  • Yono23

    The reason it’s used is that we now live in a world that disrespects the victims. Rape is horrific action,
    But it’s not as bad as 9/11 or7/7. Thousands of people have died, yet people make jokes about it like its a funny event.

    • Yono23

      Sorry but I know it has no reference to the point your making but it is food for thought about how the terms are now used, not the morality of it

  • http://twitter.com/sandy_paper Sandy Paper

    While I agree, if it does catch on as a common phrase there is little that can be done, unless enough people either claim the word (like african-americans/blacks did with the n-word) or force-ably prevent people from using it, which is fundamentally undemocratic and prevention of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech doesn’t only protect certain groups of people, it protects all aspects of society, no matter how repugnant or idiotic they may be. Pundits and professionals shouldn’t use it in that context, but unfortunately if the general public does you’ll have to deal with it. 

  • MikeB

    I think if you check your Oxford English dictionary you will find three distinct definitions of the term; sexual rape being one.

    When Harry Redknap ‘raped’ Portsmouth, by carrying off players that Portsmouth no longer had the financial ‘strength’ to hold onto, he was guilty of another definition of the term.

    Sexual rape is a harrowing and terribly traumatic crime for the ‘victim’, or is it always?

    When a fifteen-yea-old enjoys sexual relations with a sixteen-year-old (gender independent) the eldest party is guilty of ‘statutory rape’, but that is hardly a life-altering crime, or it shouldn’t be.

    I undestand your motivation in raising the subject for debate, but not your polarisation.

    Enjoy your articles, and keep up the thought provocation.

    • Sandy Henderson

      You’ve done in your argument by getting the law on ‘statuary rape’ wrong. You’re in good company as the Justice Secretary made the same mistake in that infamous Five Live interview. More generally, I can’t believe people are trying to defend the use of “rape” in a football context. Just accept that it’s offensive, insensitive, and in poor taste. So, don’t do it!

      • Sandy Henderson

        Oops! I can’t spell “statutory”. Sorry.

        • MikeB

          Hi Sandy,
            not the first time you’ve needed a dictionary, and it wasn’t an argument… merely a comment.

          But if you wish to denegrate those of us who use the language properly, and in the correct context, that is your concern and my sadness.

          Roll on August when we can all get back to more sporting matters.

          Have a good one

  • sandra350

    At first I avoided coming over here because I knew exactly the kind of morons who would respond to it (tho thankfully there’s been a lot of good feedback too). But I was finally compelled after seeing the comments and the feedback on twitter. It’s brave of you, LA, to even broach this subject for a football audience. A lot of us female football fans just keep quiet about it so as not to cause upset.

    I’m a proud feminist and know several women who have been raped. I also know 3 young men who’ve been raped (one of them when he was 6 yrs old). I’ve never been raped but I’ve been sexually assaulted and came very close to being raped had it not been for a neighbor hearing my shouts.

    I’d like to address this common argument about the word “murder” or “beaten up” and why those are acceptable whereas rape is not. On the face of it, there is logic to the argument.

    But those who make this argument don’t really understand what is particular about rape. For those of you men (and it’s always men) who shriek “men get raped too!” – do you know any? Usually those who make this argument know anyone–male or female–who’ve ever been raped. If you do know any male who’s been raped – then maybe you should acquaint yourselves about what is so particular about the crime that most certainly destroyed his sense of personhood, dignity, self-worth.

    It is difficult to express into adequate words why rape is so horrific. The only other crime I can liken it to is torture–esp. psychological torture even more than physical torture. What rape does is destroy a person’s entire world – their understanding, trust, faith, belief in themselves, their ordinary lives, their bodies, their loved ones. It destroys all their confidence, sense of dignity and self-respect. It makes them confused as to how to behave or think about themselves. They second guess everything they do or say. It makes them feel totally vulnerable, full of self-hatred. It makes them unwilling to relate to or connect to anyone else, be interested in any kind of activity – work, school, etc. It destroys their hopes for the future, their plans – it destroys or severely damages their personality. It as if they no longer recognize themselves or the world around them. Their ability to feel emotion is damaged or destroyed. They often exist in a state of permanent alienation. They often feel so much alienation from their own bodies. Rape tears away a person’s basic personhood. 

    People who’ve had friends or relatives murdered do not express outrage or sensitivity toward the casual use of “kill” or “murder”. But people who’ve been raped always flinch at the casual use of the word – it not only disturbs them, it hurts them. One of the young men I know who’s been raped (he quit his job, stopped going to school & is in longterm therapy) cringes whenever the word is even used correctly. They’re enduring enuf longterm pain as it is. Please don’t add to it.

    • ladyarse

      What a fantastic comment, thank you – you absolutely nailed it

    • reded

      very well replied. unfortunately some people may misunderstand you.

      no need to talk about the main point of your comment as ladyarse says its spot on.

      about saying your a feminist………some guys may take that your a man hater.

      on my psychology and crime course which includes sociology ive learnt about feminism.

      some feminists are real man hating “all men should die” etc etc types of feminists which is what all feminists are portrayed as.

      when theres many more feminists that are actually about equality. not pro female or anti men.

      • sandra350

        the guys who equate feminism as hating men are morons. Anyone who thinks feminists hate men are morons. Ignorant stupid people. They should educate themselves about a movement they know absolutely nothing about – all they do is parrot cliches and stereotypes proffered by decades of media and rightwing propaganda. I don’t give a crap about ignorant bigots like them and have zero respect for their precious sensibilities. And btw, it’s not just guys who have ignorant STUPID ideas about feminism. Plenty of women do too. So to them: tough shit, deal with it.

      • sandra350

        “some feminists are real man hating “all men should die” etc etc types of feminists ” – actually there aren’t any such feminists and you can’t point to any. It’s cliche, stereotypes, propaganda, bullshit. End of.

  • Chrispy

    Odd as I thought this was an Arsenal blog.
    Don’t get me wrong, it’s all very important but WTF has it got to do with AFC.
    Disappointing.

  • Pacman

    Do you even know the definition of the word rape? It’s perfectly legitimate to use it in a variety of ways to describe something – it’s an expression that’s been coined and in NO way does ANYONE “compare being badly beaten in football match to being held down and forcibly sodomised” because that’s not the definition of rape. The word can be applied to anything – the rape of the natural world by humanity, the rape of the ocean by pollution, the rape of justice… The list is almost endless. 
    No-one is trivializing the word, and your article comes across as massively hypocritical with the fact that you then go on to trivialize MURDER for no legitimate reasons at all. It is language, and it is the freedom of speech. The study of the English language teaches people that words hole multiple meanings and can be used in a variety of contexts. 
    Maybe you should also complain to the 500 million people that use the term “facebook rape” on the social networking site. I know hundreds of women who have used the term, and I bet every single person on facebook has heard it from a woman too. And it is OKAY because the definition of rape is not solely committing a sexual act without consent. You are trying to shock your reader by defining the word as describing “held down and forcibly sodomised” yet you breeze past the word murder which conveniently slips your theory when I could easily say “compare being badly beaten in a football match to being held down, tied up, and knifed fifty times to death” – that’s not what people mean when they talk about a team getting murdered in a football match is it? Just like the sexual act of rape isn’t what people mean when they mention rape in football. 
    Your hypocrisy, sexism, lacklustre and inconsistent theory, and overall misunderstanding of the English language in the word rape make this article completely void. I sympathise with you that these are your views, and you’re welcome to your opinion – but there is no reason for journalists to stop using a legitimate expression (not to mention that if it was to imply what you are saying then it wouldn’t be allowed to be printed anyway) and add to that the fact that millions of females in the world trivialize the word on a social networking site… Your article is deeply flawed I’m afraid.

  • Sibaya

    I can assure those with the nasty comedic explanation of the word rape that, it wont be funny if it happens to S’one close to you. It is disgusting in any scenario bruv.

  • Technicianone

    Men get raped in prison all day every day, but I  dont see hundred and hundreds of men coming out of jail and forever after defining themselves as rape victims,  or bitching about the use of the term in football.   They just move on and try to forget about it.    Furthermore,  last time i checked it was mainly men (not women) that get held down and sodomised, as you so crudely put it,  .    Why dont you have a go at the lying ass women,  more and more of whom seem to use rape accusations as a form of blackmail or coersion or revenge.  Are they not demeening the crime.    You dont sound bright enough to pontificate on these complex social matters so stick to football love.   

    • reded

      actually usually when men do get raped(which of course can be outside prison) they wont define themselves as being raped or wont tell anyone because they will most likely see it as humiliating……more so than a woman would.

      you have decided to take the article and seemingly thought/said? “hang on she should include everything about the word rape”. when what shes done is clever although done all the time and be specific with what her point is. cutting a load of writing which isnt relevant or not as relevant as her main point.

    • sandra350

      “ I  dont see hundred and hundreds of men coming out of jail and forever after defining themselves as rape victims” – what a staggeringly ignorant comment on so many levels. Do you know any such men? Don’t speak for people whose experiences you don’t know anything about.

      • Technicianone

        yes I do know such men,  and i am speaking for peoples who’s experience I do know about.  how the hell do you know who I know from who I dont? dipstick

  • Bing1987

    What, sexism from football fans?…………. “Yeah, do me a favour, love (Richard Keys).”
    I definitely agree with you, but sorry to be a pessimist, I don’t think there is anything you can do about this – profanity is part of human nature.
    I would add that swearing is general, often non specific to the subject it refers - its only purpose is to evoke a sense of offence. This is why swearing often makes no literal sense - eg “f**king hell,” does not refer to some kind of satanic orgy, and when you say “f**k you,” you are not hoping the person will get laid – instead an existing curse or phrase (bloody hell or damn you) has been retrofitted with a term that is most offensive in contemporary society. (For example in religious societies the most offensive terms are often blasphemy, whereas in societies where religion has lost its potency, taboo is often bodily effluvia or sexual acts).
    Finally, this brings me to my point, that when “rape” is used in the context you have described, the intension is not to be literal. No fan is implying that the referee has sexually forced himself upon one of the players; it could just as well be any other taboo term, it does not necessarily even refer to the act itself, rather the speaker has hijacked the sense of revulsion you naturally take to rape and used it to elicit a response.
     Just because it’s not literal doesn’t mean that this use of language can be condoned, and I could not agree more that this is not an acceptable term for anyone to use. It goes without saying that rape is an abhorrent act. But, taboo language is inherent to human nature, and, if there’s not a more appropriate time and a place for a discussion of the idiosyncrasies of language & human psychology than an Arsenal-blog, then i’ll go f**k myself.

    • Bettieeee

      wow, great comment. Love all the people trying to justify rape as plunder. Of course, football fans have a such a brilliant grasp of the vocabulary, that when they use the word “rape,” it’s from its original definition of “to plunder”. This just proves its just used for shock value. it doesn’t even make any sense. Agreed tho, you were wrong to turn this into an exclusively female issue, but i also think you were wrong to single out football fans.

      • ladyarse

        I didn’t turn this in to an exclusively female issue, in fact, I added an explanation as to why I only mentioned women in my article.

        • Bettieeee

          you added it as an footnote at the bottem. im just the article would have benefitted from a more balanced account of rape.

          • ladyarse

            By talking about something I have absolutely no experience of?

          • Bettieeee

            i think you missed my point, i was just saying the article was a little feminine heavy, and it looks like you’ve just retrospectively modified by using an updateto say, “oh, men get raped too, but i forgot about this, so im doing it from a female perspective”

          • ladyarse

            I certainly didn’t forget about it. I forgot about adding a reason why it was so female-centric, that is all.

  • dan

    The original definition of rape: to plunder (a place); despoil; to seize, take, or carry off by force.

    It has nothing to do with forced intercourse.

    • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

      And you know full well that is not how the word is being used. 

      Or are you suggesting that, to take an example, Alan Pardew thinks the midfielder was really plundered and despoiled by the defender?

      • Pacman

        Almost as ridiculous as you implying Alan Pardew thinks the midfielder was really held down and sodomized or sexually molested without consent… 

        Unbelievable.

        • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

          Makes you wonder why Pardew apologised so unreservedly.

          Look. If you are seriously suggesting the term doesn’t have unpleasant, gendered connotations you’re either being wilfully disingenuous or you’re a complete fool. Either way this argument serves no purpose. You either understand already or are actually incapable of it.

  • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

    This is incredible. I commented on your other blog (because frankly, I’m not an Arsenal fan and didn’t know this was here until about a minute ago). I commented that this wasn’t even a debate, that the usage was totally unacceptable.

    I can’t believe you’re attracting some of the comment you’re attracting.

    For what little it’s worth, I thought your post well written and well argued. I agree with it completely.

    • ladyarse

      Appreciate that…as for some of the comments, I’m just sitting here shaking my head….

      • Pacman

        Maybe get down off your high horse and consider the other opinions that ARE NOT CONDONING RAPE in terms of sex without consent, but are pointing out the errors in your views and offering a different opinion.

        • ladyarse

          Maybe you could point out at what point did I say anyone was condoning rape

          • Pacman

            Ok…

            If you’re implying that commentators, the media, and fans are using the term rape in it’s sexually-oriented meaning – which you are – then you’re saying that those who condone using it are condoning rape. What are you shaking your head at if not?

            Have you ever heard of someone use the term “facebook rape”? It’s a very popular term used by hundreds of millions of people.

          • ladyarse

            Hundreds of millions? Really? I think that might be a little fib. There might be hundreds of millions of facebook users, that does not mean there are hundreds of millions of people who use that term.

            You have completely missed the point so spectacularly. No-one is saying that by using the word rape people are condoning rape. What they are saying however, that when it is just thrown around casually it actually has a very real effect on the victims of rape.

            There are a thousand and one words which are used in certain ways that probably shouldn’t. Was I supposed to cover all of them? I wanted to talk about this one, so that’s what I did.

            As it’s my blog, I kinda feel I can do that.

        • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

          You have quite the passion for missing the point, don’t you?

          It doesn’t actually matter whether you think it should be thought offensive. Something being offensive is quite obviously subjective. All that really matters is that some people (to my mind quite reasonably) find it offensive. So it’d be an act of courtesy, even kindness, to think ‘ok, I’ll use a different term’.

          I don’t think that would be an unbearable restriction on your freedom now would it? You can talk about a player being robbed, mullered, walloped, smashed, crunched or whatever. I’m sure you have the imagination for it.

          For example, I don’t see any logical reason that swearing *should* be offensive. They’re only terms for genitals and sex acts, mostly. And what;s wrong with genitals? They’re no more offensive than any other body part logically speaking. And sex is a beautiful, wonderful thing. And yet, in sorrowful recognition that some people find me addressing the breakfast table with language that would make TheBig_Sam blush not quite the done thing, I limit myself to the occasional grunt.

  • Pacman

    Do you even know the definition of the word rape? It’s perfectly legitimate to use it in a variety of ways to describe something – it’s an expression that’s been coined and in NO way does ANYONE “compare being badly beaten in football match to being held down and forcibly sodomised” because that’s not the definition of rape. The word can be applied to anything – the rape of the natural world by humanity, the rape of the ocean by pollution, the rape of justice… The list is almost endless. 
    No-one is trivializing the word, and your article comes across as massively hypocritical with the fact that you then go on to trivialize MURDER for no legitimate reasons at all. It is language, and it is the freedom of speech. The study of the English language teaches people that words hole multiple meanings and can be used in a variety of contexts. 
    Maybe you should also complain to the 500 million people that use the term “facebook rape” on the social networking site. I know hundreds of women who have used the term, and I bet every single person on facebook has heard it from a woman too. And it is OKAY because the definition of rape is not solely committing a sexual act without consent. You are trying to shock your reader by defining the word as describing “held down and forcibly sodomised” yet you breeze past the word murder which conveniently slips your theory when I could easily say “compare being badly beaten in a football match to being held down, tied up, and knifed fifty times to death” – that’s not what people mean when they talk about a team getting murdered in a football match is it? Just like the sexual act of rape isn’t what people mean when they mention rape in football. 
    Your hypocrisy, sexism, lacklustre and inconsistent theory, and overall misunderstanding of the English language in the word rape make this article completely void. I sympathise with you that these are your views, and you’re welcome to your opinion – but there is no reason for journalists to stop using a legitimate expression (not to mention that if it was to imply what you are saying then it wouldn’t be allowed to be printed anyway) and add to that the fact that millions of females in the world trivialize the word on a social networking site… Your article is deeply flawed I’m afraid.

    • Brown

      Completely agreed, the article’s main point is probably correct. But everything is ruined with the whole ‘murder’ argument. Because its obvious LA is choosing the literal meaning of rape and it would only be fair if she took ‘murder’ literally. Because if u take both terms literally, a brutal murder will always be worse than a brutal rape. That little argument made this article invalid.

      • ladyarse

        I’d recommend that you read Ben’s earlier comment, about how the word ‘murder’ has already passed in to common and everyday language.

        And to say that one point you don’t agree with invalid’s an entire piece is ludicrous, I read stuff all the time where I don’t agree with parts. It doesn’t invalidate the other parts.

        Ridiculous.

        • Pacman

          Well the one part that I don’t agree with is the exact same theory you use in your entire piece. The meaning of a word and its trivialization – if you’re condoning it for one and then slating the use of another then your argument falls apart. Your argument, stripped down, is about the meaning of a word and the powerfully negative connotations of it – but then you completely ignore the other words that do the same. It doesn’t matter whether you think it has passed into common and everyday language or not, stripped down it’s your theory and you’ve negated it yourself. 

        • Brown

          EXACTLY…the word murder has been used in so many ways that it has been ”passed in to common and everyday language”. So it’s OK to use murder in ways such as ”Barcelona completely murdered Manutd in the final”, even though originally it was a cruel word to use in such ways. 
          But what you fail to realize is that the word ‘rape’ is going through the same phase as ‘murder’ and will soon (if it hasn’t already) be ”passed in to common and everyday language”

          • ladyarse

            And I’m sure at the time when ‘murder’ was passed in to common use a few people were pissed off then too

          • Brown

            of course, and in the same way you are OK with people using murder in everyday conversations, many of us are OK with using rape in everyday conversations(in the same way).

          • ladyarse

            Then let them do it. I’ve already had quite a few people say they hadn’t thought of it this way and will stop using it, so for me, that’s a result. People can say what they like, but equally, I can stand up and speak out when I don’t like it.

            If people want to defend their right to use words others find offensive, let them do that to. I regularly swear, some people find that offensive and when I’m in their company, I have the decency to cut back my swearing out of consideration for them. Doesn’t mean I think they are right, but how they feel about the use of a certain word is just as valid as how I feel about my right to use it.

          • Brown

            Obviously, and I am sure that 95% us(who regularly use ‘rape’ in everyday conversations) will NOT use the word ‘rape’ trivially IF they are aware that there is a rape victim amongst the crowd.

          • ladyarse

            But you will use it if you don’t know?

          • Brown

            of course, in the same way you will use swear words if you don’t know that people might be offended by it

          • ladyarse

            I also tend to restrict my swearing in the company of new people until I gauge what their reactions are likely to be.

  • ladyarse

    Thank you everyone for all the positive and constructive feedback.

    I simply despair at the rest of you.

  • Pacman

    Do you even know the definition of the word rape? It’s perfectly legitimate to use it in a variety of ways to describe something – it’s an expression that’s been coined and in NO way does ANYONE “compare being badly beaten in football match to being held down and forcibly sodomised” because that’s not the definition of rape. The word can be applied to anything – the rape of the natural world by humanity, the rape of the ocean by pollution, the rape of justice… The list is almost endless. 
    No-one is trivializing the word, and your article comes across as massively hypocritical with the fact that you then go on to trivialize MURDER for no legitimate reasons at all. It is language, and it is the freedom of speech. The study of the English language teaches people that words hole multiple meanings and can be used in a variety of contexts. 
    Maybe you should also complain to the 500 million people that use the term “facebook rape” on the social networking site. I know hundreds of women who have used the term, and I bet every single person on facebook has heard it from a woman too. And it is OKAY because the definition of rape is not solely committing a sexual act without consent. You are trying to shock your reader by defining the word as describing “held down and forcibly sodomised” yet you breeze past the word murder which conveniently slips your theory when I could easily say “compare being badly beaten in a football match to being held down, tied up, and knifed fifty times to death” – that’s not what people mean when they talk about a team getting murdered in a football match is it? Just like the sexual act of rape isn’t what people mean when they mention rape in football. 
    Your hypocrisy, sexism, lacklustre and inconsistent theory, and overall misunderstanding of the English language in the word rape make this article completely void. I sympathise with you that these are your views, and you’re welcome to your opinion – but there is no reason for journalists to stop using a legitimate expression (not to mention that if it was to imply what you are saying then it wouldn’t be allowed to be printed anyway) and add to that the fact that millions of females in the world trivialize the word on a social networking site… Your article is deeply flawed I’m afraid.

    • ladyarse

      Your comment was noted the first two times you posted it, no need for a third.

      • Pacman

        Did you just not want to respond to any valid points that address the flaws in your article? It could prove to make your argument more effective.

        • ladyarse

          Your comment was just that, a comment. In no way was it open to a sensible debate when your it was nothing more than patronising and condescending. Just like your follow up comment. “Did you just not want to respond to any valid points” – that is a loaded question and your second statement of “It could prove to make your argument more effective” is simply arrogant.

          So no, I will not be responding to your points, valid as you think they are. I have made my point clear, you know full well what I am talking about, and will not be baited in to responding any further. If you actually wish to see responses to your points, may I suggest reading any one of Ben’s excellent comments or Sandra’s which is equally as good. Anything further that I might add would simply be repeating what they have already said so well.

          • Pacman

            Seems to me you just want to pick and choose the points you respond to and ignore the valid points people make of differing opinions. You haven’t addressed many of the flaws people have pointed out in your article, just ignoring them and addressing ones you have a smart answer for… Blissfully ignoring the real holes in your theory. 

            Oh and by the way “it could prove to make your argument more effective” is in no way arrogant. Responding to an opposing view in an article/argument always increases its effectiveness on a reader – that’s an obvious fact, no arrogance necessary. Arrogance would mean that comment conveys my outlook on myself – but it has nothing to do with how I view myself, it’s an obvious and 100% true fact about how an argument is made more effective.

          • vegas

            what a dick for someone arguing a tecnically point that has no place in a emotional arguement should really look up the word arrogance and i think you will find your face will come up. are you really that stupid or big headed.. wait are you christano ronaldo!!! well done for making a a prize tit of yourself. the reason she wont answer your points is cause your missing the point. try opening your mind to opinions rather than trying to find elaberate thick ways of arguing. perthetic grow up you small child…

        • Bing1987

          Read my comment pacman. LadyArse is entirely correct to take offense. im afraid your argument is flawed. You are right there are acceptable circumstances to use the word rape - as you quoted “raped natural world by humanity, the rape of the ocean by pollution, the rape of justice… The list is almost endless.” But there is no way that when a fan uses the word, it is not of the original definition, “to plunder.” They are using it like a swear word, to punctuate or add potency to there comments.. hijacking the offense you take at the subject, or playing on the taboo that the word has for shock value. With this in mind “raped” is used as an equivalent of “f**ked.” swearing shouldnt be banned from football, (unless your rooney, in which case give him a 3 match ban) but its inconsiderate.  

    • vegas

      full of shit…. of course it should not be used, Everyone knows what it means not the bloody defintion. suppose the word nigger is exceptable to you under your can not understand human emotion stupid defined way of looking at stuff. bet when someone is offended you think its ok as long as you can techniqucally allowed yourself in your small brain to say so.. grow up you dick and think about what you say. absolute rubbish

  • HearMeOut

    I grew up in a rough neighbourhood and got arm-robbed several times. My mum died as a result of high blood pressure during on of the incidents. I still get pretty emotional when people use the word “robbed” out of context in everyday vocab. Where is the ‘justice’ for me? There is none I’m afraid. Neither for the “victims” in your article above.
    I’ve learnt to accept that it’s a word in the English dictionary and people will use it as they please especially if it doesn’t affect them sentimentally. Take for example, a couple of dictionary meanings for the word “rape”:

    (v): to seize, take, or carry off by force
    (n): an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: eg. the rape of the countryside

    Words could mean different things and bear different sentiments to different people

  • http://twitter.com/ben_shepherd ben_shepherd

    Let’s say that you’d never considered the usage offensive. You’d never even thought about the issue. Maybe you’d never even heard the phrase, or noticed it at least. Fair enough.

    You learn from a post that some people find it troubling, offensive, hurtful. I suppose you then have a few options. You could…

    a) Agree

    b) Decide that, whether or not you agree with the *reasons* some people find it offensive, decide that you will avoid the phrase. After all, there are plenty of ways to describe Vidic clattering Nasri that won’t cause any offense. You might as well use one of those instead. Let’s call that ‘being considerate.’

    c) Disagree and ridicule the person for being offended. Haven’t you read the dictionary?! Don’t you care about men? Why aren’t you talking about football? Let’s call that the ‘being a dick’ option.

    • ladyarse

      Hahahaha brilliant

    • Pacman

      Or you could disagree and explain your reasons why… Sharing an opinion just like this blog does in the first place. Everyone is entitled to one.

    • Pacman

      Or you could disagree and explain your reasons why… Everyone has the right to their opinion and is allowed to share it – much like this blog article does in the first place.

  • Limpars Wand

    LA, why? You’re normally so serene and light-hearted!

    I would have thought the banality of these responses to be foreseeable..

    Personally, I don’t think you can police language, and i don’t think you’d want to either. Surely none of those comments employing the word ‘rape’ were intended to trivialise serious criminal offences. And I don’t think they could anyway.

    I honestly don’t see the point of all this reaction. Mountains and mole hills.

    • ladyarse

      I wasn’t telling anyone they shouldn’t use the word, I was pointing out how offensive it was and asking people to consider their use of it. I was talking about how angry it makes me and other women I know.

      Sometimes, when you have an opinion that others don’t agree with you get told you are trying to censor their opinion which is simply not the case.

      Just as many do not like my opinions, I do not have to like those of everyone else. I also, like them, have the right to defend my opinion and I wish people (not you) would learn the difference between defending a position and not allowing others to have an opinion.

      I often find it is those who accuse others of not letting people have an opinion are the ones who have the most difficulty dealing with something they don’t agree with.

      Sorry, I’ve kinda just used the reply function via email to post this comment and it is not, in any way directed at you.

  • Franklin452

    I totally agree with you LA. The word ‘rape’ is used so casually now without any real concept of what it actually means and not just in football Well said and well done for being brave enough to voice your opinion…the same opinion many have but don’t want to say incase they are judged as being ‘sexist’ or ‘over dramatic’

  • http://www.underthecrossbar.com/ Matthew Montgomery

    Oh, dammit, commenters. I think you’ve used dictionaries in some misguided, backward attempt to argue your point, but it doesn’t seem you understand the various ways dictionaries are used! Many modern dictionaries, particularly those of the Merriam-Webster variety, serve to describe the usage of terms. In those, you will see all sorts of things that may or may not be originally “correct” but have come into common usage. Other dictionaries, however, serve to describe how terms ought be used — prescriptive dictionaries, you could call them.

    When you’re rushing eagerly to your dictionaries to justify the use of the term “rape” in non-literal terms, perhaps you should understand the difference.

    Yes, nobody thinks you’re using the term literally. But for the purpose of example, let’s take another term some would deem offensive and start using it metaphorically. How about something like “Gas Chambered,” in relation to World War II travesties. (You know it had to go there, right?) And let’s use that to describe a player really getting one over on another player. So, “Szczesny totally gas chambered Rooney on that PK” would be an example usage.

    Now, does that suddenly become OK because I’m using it in a metaphorical usage?

    Let’s try another. How about this sentence: “Fabregas totally gas chambered Spurs with that brilliant goal.”

    Is that offensive? Wait, it is?

    The purpose of this debate isn’t to control language, and it’s not to force you to use different terms. But when you attempt to trivialize the term ‘rape’ in an attempt to justify your usage, you’re doing everyone a disservice. You’re dumbing down the language, you’re trivializing the impact of rape, and you’re making yourself look more than a bit of a brute.

    • ladyarse

      Thank you.

  • dfb

    Absolutely agree with you. The term should never be used on something so trivial as football. Those that do so have little imagination or empathy and do it because it currently seems to be in vogue.

    Maybe it’s an age thing. My son sometimes uses the phrase as if it’s a perfectly normal thing to say but to me it isn’t, it’s hugely disturbing.

    • ladyarse

      Maybe you’re right and it is an age thing….

      • vegas

        is there anyway of blocking pacman… the guy does not understand anything. its really annoying

  • M_stevens184

    CCome on its not suppose.to be offensive even my bird uses the word during football wanna no what is sick a bird who u dnt no on public transport talking.bout.periods!!! It’s just a.term n many phrases out there that people use that people dnt like. No need to write a.blog bout it!

  • vegas

    did not realise it was ever used… who has been saying it, watched allot of football can not remeber anyone saying it. totally wrong but when someone says it, it is not taken as a joke, look at the headlines david haye made when he used it. surely i would of noticed. please fill me in who said it and when… i think this is a radom thing to talk about and not really interesting as its not an issue. is it??? crazy surely no one uses that word on tv???

  • Omglol

    Good but very sensitive topic. Didnt knew british use this vocabular so often.

    Every language is alive and developing all the time, words are morphing and accepted with different  use depend of socity, but its sad that people use more often this pool of words.
     In my country dont think anyone will dare to use in sport news, the word “murder” or “rape” like some examples here, it would be seen realy rude.
    Maby Internet and social networks are to blame, distance reduce the responsobility of the words used on internet, and this slowly push the moral line and enter in daily communication.Its strange how some people try to win argument with showing multiple meaning of the word “rape” when we all know with what meaning that word was used when we talk about football. Giving shallow example to justify your side dont mean winning the argument.

  • Weedonald

    What happened to the cherished tradition of an educated,civilized and respectful use of the English language to describe sporting events? Am I the only one here who wonders why terms like raped, buggered, f**ked, ad nauseam are being used to describe one team’s victory over another? Strangely enough, the other side of the Pond rarely if ever see such terms used to blog about a sporting event. Fans may use comments like; getting rolled over or steamrolled, getting burnt, getting shown a lesson, dominated, massacred, soundly beaten, etc. to describe one team’s victory over their adversary BUT the use of insensitive and vulgar terms would NOT be tolerated for very long. 
    Is this a sign of the times….where ignorant brutes rejoice in describing a team’s defeat as being a ¨rape¨ and if so, the psychological implications of such vicious and demeaning language are indeed worrying.
    While the language still has appropriate and humane ways to describe one team’s victory over another, I’ll continue to use the nobler and more edifying versions, thank you! Great post LA.

  • vegas

    this all makes me laugh, the word rape is unexceptable and offensive, the word murdering a team in football is quite fine i think, sometimes i hear that team got masiccard does not offend.  The reason being one is ofensive and others arn’t simply. It makes me laugh cause football fans are offensive, really really offensive sometimes. is this ok. well some people just like to offend people and that is that. all these arguements about something as simple as this is crazy people are arguing whether something that is offensive is offensive or not.. they sometimes shout racist chants. thats offensive it happens its not a debate it is just offensive. if people say i am going to rape you they are not trying to be nice but to offend, so there is no arguement, lets face it people can be gits not much you can do about it, especially in our culture, people love swearing and being offensive at the football, boundries will always be pushed. might have a gay player soon, sure the fans will be nice. just shows the crowd to be a crowd. its like socrates said thousands of years back people are stupid, he also said a person is clever go figue.

  • Shard

    Not a regular reader though I do have a look at your blog occasionally. I remember reading about this topic on some other site at one point and it attracted as many stupid comments as it does here.  I can understand people defending their right to use the term, but I do not see how they can deny the term being offensive, or at least insensitive. The purely ‘logical’ stance is just a deflection tactic. Anything can be justified if we apply logic illogically, if that makes any sense. I mean logically, why should any of us matter. Carbon based life forms floating around on a nondescript planet in some corner of the universe. (if the universe has a corner that is) Without the human aspect, everything loses it’s context. And that’s where people using the dictionary and pointing to some archaic usage miss the point. It is not the events, or the meaning of a word in this case, that have importance. It is the effect they have on people that should lend them importance. And in this case, the potential effects on a victim, or a victim’s friends and family, are enough to dictate that the usage of the word have some sort of filter.
    Also with regards to murder, I think the difference is that murders are treated as serious crimes by everyone. Victims are given universal support. The victims, are no longer victimised so to speak. Rape, very often, doesn’t get the serious attention it deserves. Victims are left to face the trauma, relive it over and over again, and face a certain social stigma too, and as you said, very often the crime goes unpunished and even unrecognised.. So yes, the word rape deserves more sensitivity than murder.

    • ladyarse

      That was exactly the point I was making (amongst others) about murder being murder, where as rape is not taken seriously.

      Thank you.

      • vegas

        i agree rape should not be used, but i honestly think people do take the subject seriously. who on tv has said it? i find that amazing.. good blog do not let pac man get you down, he has made a tit of himself. and yes i was trying to offend him, sometimes being offencive is justified. but using the word rape to decribe football is totally wrong cause it offends inocents, even if the person saying it is unaware or does not care about doing it. so i now think its a good thing to talk about gets it out there..

        • ladyarse

          Sounness and Pardew both used it on TV

          • vegas

            wow, did not know that. and souness did not get sacked. i find that to be as bad if not worse as what that idiot grey did. thanks for pointing that out and it should be stamped out. Its almost impossible to control what the fans say but for a pundit and manger to use that term on tv is outrageous. what is happening to peoples filtering systems, i blame the media for dumbing this country down.. if we are all thick easyer to control us, well you have opened my eyes,

    • MikeB

      For goodness sake; what is it about this
      that people find so hard to understand?

      When I posted my comment last night, I was
      referring to definitions, linguistic semantics, and etymology. Not archaic
      references in defunct dictionaries, and yet I was immediately met with one
      contributor who believed that a reference to legal jurisdiction, and the
      political incompetence of a Justice Secretary from a morally and intellectually
      bankrupt government, somehow undermined my point. I naturally assumed the contributor
      was in some way being deliberately obtuse and ignored the comment, but now this
      latest nonsense.

      The word has three distinct definitions,
      and numerous facets within those broad definitions.

      If you wish to vilify references to sexual
      rape in the context of a football match, I applaud your efforts, but that was
      not what you did. You applied an emotional connotation without proper
      definition, and allowed those with a similar emotional axe to grind to begin
      some sort of concerted campaign against legitimate comment and disagreement.

      As I said earlier… I am all for lively discussion,
      but I draw the line at polarisation.

      Have a good one

      • vegas

        you are so missing the point… wish you could understand..

        if i said rape to someone and asked them what it ment, i bet 99% of people would think sexual rape. end of 

        when you use that word it effects people regardless to all that crap you have just spouted. and i find your last sentence to be really arrogent.

        i do not know anyone who has been raped, i am a 30 year old farmer and i know not to use that word to discribe things as it can offend people.  if i did use it in its correct way like the US rapes the middle east of its oil, then fair enough but for someone to use the word about football, well its just thick.. please grow a brain to go with your extensive vocab.. would help… yes that was ment to be offensive, but tecnically i did not find it to be, so it must be ok.!!!

        • MikeB

          ‘All that crap, and, grow a brain’ ?

          The point was about language, not emotion, and the basic building blocks with which we communicate. The terms used are necessary to debate that subject.

          Not that you in any way legitimise my point, but when one contributor begins deliberately offending another contributor, I believe it is time to move on.

          I shall consequently not be answering your comment in any detail, or contributing further on the subject..

          Have a nice day

          • vegas

            i not talking anymore, how childish is that.. at least tell me to fuck off..

            look read the title, rape is not an acceptable footballing term. it has nothing to do with definintions of the word at all.. please grow a brain.. everyone knows what it means and how people might take it. if you do not that mean you simply do not care about others feelings. which your more than entiltle too, but as far as i am concernd makes you a bit of a twat. pointless debating anyway with idiots anyway. why on this green earth would you even try and justifie such a thing. just means you are arrogent and like to argue.. pethetic..

          • Merrick

            “How childish is that.. at least tell me to fuck off” – Letting yourself be goaded by someone wishing to respectfully avoid heated debate surely signifies that if anything it is yourself who enjoys an argument.. Also if your points are largely supported by the notion that the opposition is a ‘twat’ and needs to ‘grow a brain’ I can see why you’re not exactly his first choice for a stimulating discussion.

            Please consider

      • Shard

        Firstly, I think you took my reference to the use of dictionaries, personally. I had no such intention. I do not frequent this blog much and I just made a comment on the article and the comments that I browsed through.

        Secondly, if you wish, you may change my sentence about archaic usage into one about definitions, linguistic semantics, and etymology. The point still stands.

        I do not aim to vilify anything, I do not have any axe to grind, and I do not understand how I created any polarisation. Also, I did not apply any emotional connotation. The topic itself has emotional connotations, which is probably what you missed in the first place. I simply pointed out that people were arguing purely logically about an issue which deserves human empathy. Understanding on a human level.. However, if you do not agree, that is your right. I also said that people have a right to use the term. I just don’t see how it can be denied that the usage is insensitive.

      • ron

        how wrong would it be to tell this fool that his wife, mum or daughter had been raped. for him feel the shame and guilt of not protecting them..
        i wonder what said wife, mum and daughter would think of his attitude when his ‘right to free speech is more important that the wider picture.

  • Makks

    Another insensitive act by English fans is dressing up as crusaders… this is not patriotic, this is insensitive to peoples whose countries were invaded and destroyed during the crusades…
    It is the equivalent of Saudis dressing up as Bin Laden to a football match

  • Simonius

    It’s a tricky one this. I completely agree that the connotation in 99% of people’s minds is sexual rape, and so it should be considering what a disgusting thing it is. Having said that, the way that Alan Pardew used it on MOTD was correct. It describes an act of plunder, which is precisely what Essien does in the clip, he plunders the ball from the opposition, leaving him stranded afterwards. It’s a very descriptive word and considering the amount of superlatives and verbs these pundits use, I always welcome a bit of verbal dexterity.

    I think the real issue here is that in a male game (I specifically mean men’s football here) there is not the same inherent empathy, because rape has always been the exploitation of women, so there is no taboo. I couldn’t say for sure, but I’d be surprised if the term was widely used in the women’s game. Similarly, you are unlikely to hear male pundits to use a term like castrate widely in a metaphorical sense because they can only too readily imagine it. I really do think that the weight of the word is where it lies, and not any ideas of policing or censorship, which never solve the problem whatsoever.

  • harrybarracuda

    I’ve never heard “rape” used at a football match, and even if I did, in context it would make sense. One of the meanings of the word is “destroy”.

    This particular piece is just utter drivel, and you must be very sad if you’re trying to get serious discussion going about this kind of PC nonsense. Stick to football, you aren’t that bad at that.

    • Ban Ki Moon

      jesus wept in to his wine.

      Why don’t you test your assertion on the average person in the street and see what context they ascribe to ‘rape’? I can tell you something for nothing that the majority will not associate ‘rape’ with ‘destroy’ or any of the other ‘alternative’ meanings contained in the OED.

  • cyclechicster

    Hmm, I agree with a couple of commenters that you weaken your argument by diminishing the significance of ‘murder’ or ‘kill’ in football context, but I certainly agree with the main point anyway. I think what may strengthen your piece is the use of statistics. You’ve always used them as evidence so now Imma throw some at your commenters.
    These are for the USA and collected from RAINN:
    1 out of 6 women has been the victim of attempted/completed rape.
    to put that into a real number, that’s 17.7 million American women.
    1 in 33 men have been the victim of attempted/completed rape
    15% of sexual assault victims are children under the age of 12

    Victims of sexual assault are:
    3x more likely to suffer depression
    6x more likely to suffer PTSD
    13x more likely to abuse alcohol
    26x more likely to abuse drugs
    4x more likely to contemplate suicide

    The varying definitions become irrelevant in day to day conversation, because the connotation is always the same: sexual rape. Language isn’t just what you perceive the definition to be, it’s also what your audience will perceive. That perception is ultimately more important than the message you intended to convey, so while *you* may mean a “plunder of opposition,” be aware that whoever you’re talking to isn’t going to think of that.
    In any case, the plunder definition of rape that a few commenters were discussing can easily be substituted by words that don’t have those connotations: pillage, looting, and my personal favorite: ransack.

  • http://flavors.me/sabret00the sabret00the

    You know how it’s plain to see that you’re talking for talking sake. First of all you attempt to distinguish between rape on a gender basis and secondly you’re talking out of your arse, from a soapbox and on a matter you’ve clearly never experienced.

    People that have been raped aren’t people running around screeching at the mere mention of the word, they’re people who are offended by the act. The atrocity of the act is summarised by the word, it’s not defined by the word.

    Two out of three definitions in the dictionary don’t reference sex in the slightest:
    2. To seize and carry off by force.
    3. To plunder or pillage.Are you attempting to say that this word shouldn’t be used accept for in reference to victims? Who do you empower by such an opinion, certainly not the victims… that’s right, only yourself who is attempting to sound intelligent and compassionate in the worst possible manner. It was a sad sad day in your world when you actually thought you were offering anything to the world with this post. Pat yourself on the back for your ineptitude at life.

    • ladyarse

      If you say so.

    • IcamefortheArsenal

      You know, it’s plain to see that you have some serious emotional issues with this article. First of all, you ignore that statisticians and police often distinguish crimes as being gender/age/race/wealth-related, and second of all, you’re ignoring the possibility that (horrifying as it is to realize) any person you randomly flame on the internet could quite definitely have “experienced” this “matter”.

      Rape victims aren’t running around screaming at the mention of the word. They’re reliving the most horrific experience of their lives at the mention of the word. The atrocity of the act isn’t summarised by the word. The atrocity of the act is ripped back into their consciousness by your lack of a vocabulary. 

      Two little anecdotes to hopefully apprise you of the role of manners in conversation:
      1.) I once had a conversation with a woman about the legality of abortion. I am pro-choice, from the US, but was playing devil’s advocate in one portion of an argument in order to get to the counterpoint that I think creates a foundation for the pro-life movement. The woman became emotional and left the room before I could get to this point. I was later told that the woman had been raped by a college professor, and consequently had an abortion. The woman was my mother, and I had no idea what she had “experienced” until that moment.
      2.) A girl I dated confessed to me that she was a victim, and it made me realize she was one of the strongest people I’d ever met. But she has trouble hanging out with some of my friends, due to their tendency to use “rape” as a hyperbolic term for “losing”. They told me she was “bitchy” and “uptight” about their use of language. I politely refrained from strangling them.

      Rape comes from the latin “rapere” – “1. to grab, snatch 2. take.” In fact, “rape” in latin literally translates as “you take” (i.e. Take! in the imperative). That doesn’t mean I can point at my younger cousin grabbing cookies, and yell “Rape!” – even if I think everyone in the room probably speaks latin, and has never been raped.  

      In fact, even now that I know you know what the 2nd latin definition of “Rape” is (Take! (imperative)), and even though I’m going to telling you that “Death” is the name of a play by Woody Allen, I’m pretty sure you’d still get upset with me if I told you to:

      Rape your mother to Death.

      Even though, in my own special language, I’m just telling you to take your family to see a play. Pat yourself on the back for your ability to elicit my first comment on this blog, despite how old your post is.

  • Beka

    Hi LadyArse,

    I’m a long time reader of your blog, and a big fan of your work. Usually I take great pleasure in watching your moral battles on twitter and the like. However, while I respect the opinion you have put forth in this article, as a female reader, I have to respectfully disagree. I take your point that rape is a hideous crime, and naturally agree that it should never be trivialised. Where we differ, however, is that its application in real-world contexts (including football) that clearly have no relation to the sexual arena is somehow inappropriate. Perhaps, as a young woman in my early twenties, I am further along the path of accepting rape as a ‘word of general usage’, in the same way that you have accepted murder, though you do not seek to trivialise THAT horrendous crime, or offend its victims. Language is constantly evolving in this way, and will continue to do so. Efforts to contain or suppress it are generally futile and usually have the opposite effect of actually encouraging growth (take the Académie française as an example). 

    Now, I realise you are talking about respect, and are likening refraining from using ‘rape’ out of context to using swear words. Like you, I do not find swear words offensive, but generally try to hold back when in the company of those I know to be more delicate. The difficulty comes, however, in determining when a word has entered into such ‘general usage’ as to cease being a swear word, if you will. “We beat that team soundly” certainly does not evoke any images whatsoever of physical assault and battery in my mind. Likewise, “we absolutely murdered them out there today”, while a stronger phrase, still does not cause images of horrible stabbings or other ghastly homicides to spring to mind. Why? Because as you rightly say, these words have passed into general usage. In the same way, to me, “That team got raped today” simply signifies a huge loss of dignity and respect to the team in question – attributes associated with the several definitions of the word. I do not envisage sodomy or non-consensual sex of any kind, nor do I intend to trivialise the horror of a rape victim’s experience by my use of the phrase. 

    While I acknowledge that a rape victim would nonetheless suffer from hearing this reminder of their horrific experience, and I certainly do not wish to cause any extra suffering to my fellow human beings, I question how I am then to draw the line in my control of my language. Surely a victim of a horrible assault would be equally distressed by terms such as “beaten”, yet this is now a common piece of sports terminology to describe the state of being ‘victorious’. It became such through its prolonged use in such a context. I am certain that along the way, many people would have taken equal offence to this such as you have taken to the use of the term rape. Yet is this any valid reason today why someone should not be allowed to say “We beat that team”? 

    You might argue that this is no reason why rape should go down the same path, and that people should still control the language they use out of respect. But language is a funny thing, and it has an inexorable way of moving in a particular direction whether speakers desire such a thing or not. I will make efforts to not use the word rape in front of a rape victim. However, I will continue to use it in other company as I believe that words only have as much power as we choose to give them. The worst swear word falls as lightly as dewdrops on the ears of a foreign language speaker. In the end, words are just sounds which we have assigned certain meanings to. The word rape, as I suggested above, is particularly evocative of the attributes of a loss of respect and dignity. This is clearly often applicable in a football scenario (such as in a case of a 6-0 defeat, or where a team is otherwise completely outclassed and outplayed), so it is my respectful contention that it IS, in fact, appropriate to use it in such a context. I accept that you disagree, but just as I can see you perspective, I hope you can see mine – and that it is certainly NOT my intention to cause offence or to trivialise a rape victim’s experience by my use of the word.

    Finally, since I have tried to be respectful at all times when writing this comment, I hope that people will refrain from abusive replies. I realise this is an emotive issue, but I have tried to make a coherent argument and hope to engage in a real debate, not just “u r an idiot & hav totlly msised LA’s awsum point”.

    Beka

    • kooch1

      Hi, I hope you don’t mind me commenting on this. I appreciate that language will grow and words will acquire new meaning. “gay” for example. That said, it says a lot about the person who adopted the use of the word rape in such a trivial context, also those people who wish to accept it’s new meaning just a word.

      For me as an average male I would never use this term so “loosely”. It’s reserved for something abhorrent. Adoption of the term “gay” was retaliatory. Other terms would have been offensive to gay people and still are. Would you call a gay person queer if you knew he would be offended. How many people in the Arsenal fan base would use the IRA expression Tiocfaidh ár lá (our day will come) in front of soldiers who lost limbs in Northern Ireland? Would you use the term “he blew up” meaning he was angry to someone who’d just lost family in the twin towers bombing? of course not………but they’re just words too. To the wrong audience however, they’re offensive and hurtful. The BBC has a very wide audience.
      The team was fucked is far less offensive in my opinion. But the BBC aren’t allowed to use this term. Why not? It’s only a word. Suarez got sent off .stupid mother fucker. I DETEST this expression. Why? Because I find it repulsive.
      The suggestions that rape is just a word, in my opinion must emanate from people who don’t wish to think about the meaning of expression. The press however, in their search for newer adjectives are happy to employ these sound bites. Why? it doesn’t make the commentry more stimulating. It’s because it’s strong, nasty, and stays in the mind of the viewer. That’s what’s it’s supposed to do. So how then does it make the people who have been raped feel?
      Fatigue :- He’s Belsened / Treblinkared
      Badly injured:- He’s Eniskillined
      Bad tackling:- He’s Lady Di driving
      Only words…………………. but repulsive and insensitive . Thank you Lady Arse for sticking to your Guns……….and Gunners :)
      or Perhaps I’m just being a stupid fucking cunt…………..Another expression I very rarely use , why because its offensive!

      • ladyarse

        Thanks for that, really appreciate it and you made some great points.

  • Simon68

    Forgive me for coming to this debate late and also for possibly going over old ground. I haven’t the time to read the 160 odd posts on the subject.

    Firstly, I absolutely agree that the word ‘rape’ should not be used in anything other than the context it was intended for.  To use the word in relation to what is after all, just a game, is ridiculous.

    Second, for anyone to try and convince people that the word means, to probably 99.999% of people, anything other than a non-consensual sexual act is not just ludicrous, but just strikes me as someone trying to show how clever they are. All it shows is the opposite.

    Thirdly, for anyone to argue that, say, a full-back being taken to the cleaners by his opposing winger is non-consensual, is wrong.

    By putting on a football kit and taking the field, the full-back is consenting to the possibility of humiliation at the hands of his opposing winger. Unless, of course, you are stupid enough to argue that a woman wearing a short skirt and going to a bar is herself ‘asking for it’ and is the author of her own misfortune.

    A full-back puts himself in a position whereby he is trying to stop the opposition winger from performing the function he is put on the field for and in turn to try and turn the tables on him. But does a rape victim say ‘Come on, see if you can rip my underwear off and f*ck me, but if you can’t I’ll try to do the same to you?’ No, of course not.

    So why try and defend the use of the word ‘rape’ and what it signifies to the overwhelming majority, by football pundits when there are are whole host of other innocent word that could be used. I know a lot of football pundits, managers etc are not the brightest, but don’t defend them. Educate them.

    • ladyarse

      Great comment, and thank you for that.

      To all the others I haven’t replied to, that’s just been a matter of time/timing, sorry.

    • Martha01

      “Educate them”, you say, after displaying your own ignorance. That you don’t understand the meaning of a word does not mean that others do not. 

      • Simon68

        Ignorance? Not understanding the meaning of the word? I FULLY understand the meaning of the word and, as I said in my post, I fully understand what the word means to the overwhelming majority. If YOU can’t understand THAT, then more fool you.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZKDTU5JGNVLQUFXVAYK572LLRM Jeffrey

    It is kind of strange how “rape” is used. It reminds me of how kids use “gay” to describe everything. Soon maybe they’ll be calling things “gay rape” and then probably “prison rape” if you’re in The States.

  • ron

    in certain circumstances, rapists should hang, such is the damage caused by rape.
    never should the word be used in conection with what is after all; just a silly game.

  • Robin

    Rape.

    • ladyarse

      With one word you’ve just showed everybody the level of your IQ. Well done.

  • steveayling01

    Why are people even bothering to create an argument FOR using the term?!!! There isn’t one, if you use it to describe anything other than it is…you’re a cunt. End of.

  • steveayling01

    Why are people even bothering to create an argument FOR using the term?!!! There isn’t one, if you use it to describe anything other than it is…you’re a cunt. End of.

  • J

    This unbalanced article unfortunately sums up the state of the modern world. A certain faction overreacting and fixating on terms of language that are evolving all the time. English is one of very few languages that are very descriptive. One of the oldest and widest used languages globally. You only need to look at Shakespeare’s works to see that we have always had colourful insults and terms for all types of references. Trying to now police this is ludicrous and somewhat laughable. There are stranger and cruder metaphors riddled throughout our language.

    People have been victims of this crime for centuries and these references have been around for a similar amount of time. We are a country that prides itself on freedom of speech. If we stop using certain words…what next? As someone else mentioned what about “bugger me”. Or Frape as this portrays the same image surely. Everyone knows it and a lot of people, women included use it as a term. It doesn’t ridicule the act it pokes fun at the English language, a simple play on words. Is Frape just as offensive? I noted LA didn’t comment on this reference, conveniently. lol.
    What about all of those people commenting on this word as disgusting. What about British comedy. A lot of British stand up comedians use a lot of profanity. They also make jokes about paedophilia eg. Gary Glitter, murder, death, aids, racism, wars, Bin Laden, etc. Have you never laughed at any joke around any of that content. If you say no then you are lying to yourself. We all have. Do you not think that some may find those anecdotes offensive? This broad type of comedy and outlook is what makes us British. That is what our comedy is, not being inhibited or afraid to shock. We can also take the p*ss out of ourselves as a nation, as British citizens, whether we are white, black or blue. The reason being it all stems from defiance, it is inbred in us to not conform and want to rebel at what is not deemed to be the norm or expected.The British Isles has been through centuries of change and from William the Conqueror to fighting two World Wars to the 7/7 bombings. British people have experienced a lot of hardship and the only way to battle that is with humour! to coin the phrase if you don’t laugh…you cry! It may not be to everyones taste but it is a phrase that has been around for years and we don’t just pick and choose which to cull based on a minorities blinkered viewpoint.
    With that being said any comment on the actual act of rape as trivial as opposed to the macabre, “mental torture” how one individual referred to it, are ignorant. Plain and simple. Rape is a physical act of violence and all about control or a false impression of entitlement and refusal to take no for an answer. The intention to humiliate and degrade an individual to force them to feel powerless. Statistics suggest not only is it the most difficult crime to prove, often relying on bulletproof DNA and combination of victim and witness testimony. It is unfortunately the victim itself of many misconceptions and therefore misunderstood. The majority of acts are carried out by someone familiar to the victim and although sex does feature, it often as explained above isn’t the motive or the gratifying aspect to the perpetrator. Also it has the connotations associated with it as being misleading. Due mainly above to inconclusive DNA results or witnesses retracting statements. Or indeed in some cases, false accusations. Which, coincidentally have occurred within the football arena… RVP, Dickov, etc to name a couple. I’m not going to comment on any individual case. All I will say is all charges were dropped. The media also blows a lot of high profile stories out of proportion sometimes and other times just misreports information to create a stir and sell newspapers. Unfortunately, that is a fact. All of these reasons contribute to why public perception of rape is that it isn’t deemed as serious as other violent crimes.
    All this article does is create a drama out of nothing. The act is heinous. The word is not! I feel sorry for those people who deem otherwise, because where do you draw the line. We either are a country of freedom of speech or we are not! I also feel offended as a man that this woman actually only mentioned men as an amended footnote at the end of the article. Poor and I think as ignorant as some of the so called men who LA feels would not understand due to their sex…talk about offensive! What a hypocrite. Lol …… “I don’t expect everyone to agree, and while it will come across as incredibly sexist of me to say it, I expect those who disagree to be men”
    All I can say is on a most serious note. There must still be some raw feelings for you with regards to a particular incident in which you were directly affected. However, to just tag on the end a small paragraph to state that you realise that men are also victims but you know nothing about that side is just feeble. Makes me think this is more about forcing your extreme view on people rather than raising an issue you feel merits importance. I think you will find in all of my points I have not once referred to male or female. Rape unlike you does not discriminate against sex!
    I will finish by saying I am a male and I am close to someone that was a victim of a violent sexual assault. She was extremely courageous and fought off her attacker. The police after her help with his identification, arrested him. Evidence was later found linking him to a series of attacks and she was asked to stand up and give testimony in court. Which, although she had been traumatised by the ordeal she did as she realised he needed to be prevented from repeating these gruesome crimes. He was convicted and sent to prison. It was a gruelling time and incredibly emotional for her and even for me. So she definitely has an understanding of this crime, empathy for any victims as do I and a right as much as any to comment on this issue.
    So when I asked her if she thought I was misjudging this situation or misreading it in any way. Her answer was as follows:
    :”No the word rape, used in the aforementioned context doesn’t ridicule victims of the act it serves simply as another descriptive word in the English language. She joked, there are many others that I would prefer to eliminate given the choice.”
    I then finally asked if she found it offensive used in the metaphorical context referenced and she remarked:
    “As an Editor I find it increasingly frustrating and incredibly insane that people are now trying to govern what words we are permitted to use and what we are not permitted to use, due to extreme political correctness. All it does is make my job more difficult.
    That is one of the reasons why I love her because she just sees things for what they are.There are far more essential, pressing concerns in the world than the English language. It is a word and that is all it is.
    So I will leave you with that food for thought Lady A and others.

    • ladyarse

      I did not discriminate, my experience is with women who have been raped, something from your comment I can tell you have never come face to face with. But please, feel free to leave another lengthy comment telling me how your opinion is more valid. Make sure that you’re patronising and arrogant in it as well, won’t you?
      I’m not going to address the points you made because, quite frankly, there is no point.

  • ladyarse

    You say that you are close to someone who experienced a sexual assault and that basically she ‘handled it and for that I am extremely glad. I am close to more woman than I can count who have been violently and, in some cases repeatedly raped and many of them have not been as fortunate. I have watched as their lives feel apart and they tried to kill themselves, I have been there while they relive the incident over and over at the mere mention of the word.
    But please, tell us again how your experience is the only one that matters.
    (I missed this on my first reading because, well, your comment was about three times longer than the blog itself and I stopped reading due to how patronising it was)

    • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

      The only patronising one on here is you. Your final comment illustrates exactly that. You only seem to like the sound of your own voice. Some of your replies to others is testament to that. You praise everyone who agrees with you and slate anyone else who does not regardless of their argument. It’s a shame you are so insecure and overly defensive as you appear to care. Just a shame your writing comes across as more of a reprimand than an education. Tone is aggressive especially in your reply above. So I feel the need to address this. I have written in depth you can read it or don’t. It’s of course your prerogative. I won’t be surprised if you don’t permit my response on your website either…..

      Just because you have a blog and a few twitter followers what you say is gospel and you hold some kind of importance -the danger of social networks unfortunately. It is pathetic…lol. I’m sorry if you cant argue any point in a mature fashion and instead resort to ridiculing someone else’s views without any kind of composed rebuttal. Your post was extremely one sided and the overall message I gleaned was your continuous attempt as always to dictate to people what they can and cannot say. I suggest as someone else already said, you should stick to football, if when you post a contentious article you can’t accept a difference of opinion or any constructive criticism. I believe unlike you I actually put an informed argument across and backed it up with facts. Not once did I belittle the act of rape in fact I stated how abhorrent I believed it to be and explained that I have been close to someone who had experienced something similar. Once again you feel the need to ridicule someone else’s experience, which I might add is extremely disrespectful and totally insensitive considering what I told you was personal and directed to the issue you are supposed to care about. Is my friend’s experience not as important as yours? I never said as you remarked, that mine or the person who experienced such an act was an authority on the topic as you claim to be or that “my experience is the only one that matters”. It’s a shame that you have to twist peoples words to attempt to make a point. What I did say was that there should be freedom of speech. I also mentioned, which was true that you aimed the whole account towards a female audience, neglecting any male audience. As I stated, rape doesn’t discriminate against sex and neither should we.
      I have since spoken to my friend and she also stated that it is people like you who unintentionally or intentionally tiptoe around the word “rape” and avoid talking about the topic in general which leads to it’s uncomfortable approach within media and why it isn’t addressed in the correct fashion in the public arena in the same way murder is. In addition the power is associated with the word and the whole taboo subject. She feels if you were to take away that power then maybe it would remove some of these misconceptions. She added that anyone who can’t hear the word “rape” mentioned in society, should be attending some kind of counselling service as they surely cannot function properly. The two other people who were victims in the same case, one a young girl the other a mature woman both struggled with their testimony and counselling was offered to all three victims. It is not healthy to not be able to hear a word without associating huge trauma with it. I am not talking about discussing the topic or subjecting the afflicted individual to a TV re-enactment or an in depth account of an incident. Those that you associate with have obviously experienced some horrific events in their lives. A friend of a friend who was also raped…twice by two different individuals sought counselling after a life threatening bout of anorexia due to her increased anxiety and inability to function in society after her second ordeal. Her illness became so severe her organs actually started to fail. After long term counselling she is now married, has a child of her own and massively recovered her health, both mentally and physically due in part to counselling. She always wanted people to not avoid talking about it because otherwise she felt that her attacker had won. She didn’t want to be afraid of the topic but she also didn’t want to relive the event in question of course. The more it is discussed the more people will be aware of the suffering you mention and the gravity and fallout of such attacks. Understanding would grow and the public would put pressure on the authorities to be more prepared to address it head on as opposed to brushing it under the carpet or allowing the CPS to pass such weak sentences.
      Your informed opinion and sweeping statement exclaiming all women who are victims of this crime don’t ever want to hear the word “rape” in any context is ludicrous as is your attempt to boycott the word hypothetically or otherwise from our language.
      J.

      • ladyarse

        “People like me” – neither you nor your friend know anything about me. Next time I’m with one of my friends/ex-partners who can’t bear to hear the word rape used in the context of describing a defeat in football as like being raped I’ll be sure to inform her that you both think she should just get over it so I don’t have to tiptoe around the subject any more.

        This blog is my opinion. People are free to listen or to ignore. I have never once tried to stop anyone having their opinion, nor have I ever deleted comments. It’s ‘people like you’ who think that simply because someone doesn’t like what someone else is saying they are trying to stop them from having an opinion.

        If you cannot see the arrogant and patronising tone of both your comments then I’m not going to bother trying to point it out to you any further. You’ve made numerous assumptions throughout your posts about what you think I believe and then acted as if these are fact. The ‘fact’ of my argument is that through very personal experience, I have been informed on numerous occasions that the use of this term in this context is traumatic to many rape victims. Not all. Many. But please, continue to make sweeping assumptions like the ones you’ve accused me of.

  • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

    My assumptions are based on what you have said originally and what you have replied since. It is extremely hypocritical for you to state this, considering you were the first to throw insults out. I looked at what you wrote, assessed the piece and put my opinion across. I even quoted you so I wasn’t fabricating any points. I don’t understand where all the aggression comes from to be honest. You attacked me instead of just responding to my comments in the form of a debate, which I understood was why you posted the topic in the first place. I have shown you as much respect as you have me or any other reader you didn’t agree with eg Pacman or Simonius and others. In addition as I stated previously you still haven’t addressed one point of mine. Not to mention the fact that you twisted my words YET AGAIN to justify your false criticism of me being patronising and inconsiderate. In addition to this you deliberately avoided my point regarding your insensitive jibe, belittling my friend’s ordeal.If it wasn’t for people who are courageous like her there would be no convictions. (and before you predictably twist my words again..”so you’re saying all the other victims who don’t report the crime due to fear are weak”…NO that is not what I’m saying!). You on the other hand feel her suffering is fair game to feebly attempt to prove a point. Yeah..you must really care about this issue!!

    • ladyarse

      I never once belittled your friends ordeal.

      • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

        “But please, tell us again how your experience is the only one that matters.”
        Doesn’t sound like there is much respect there for what she went through to me?? Your words!

        • ladyarse

          My words, your interpretation.

          • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

            Oh I see I misconstrued your words well I must say if that’s the case then now you know how it feels as you have been doing it to me ever since my first post. I stand corrected apparently. So what exactly did you mean by that comment. Enlighten me?

          • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

            Your silence confirms I was right. Too much of a coward to even admit it. You are full of it and what’s more I think this veil of so called empathy that you hide behind sums up your character or lack there of. Either you don’t understand the comments you post, which means you shouldn’t post them or you have a total disregard for anyone’s feelings apart from your own apparently. Either way your attitude repulses me. People like you are always hiding behind faith and beliefs.. When in fact it’s just a tool to enable them to receive constant attention and insist on being right all the time. You never even consider any other points of view let alone conform even in part to the ideals.of others.

            I note that “interestedreader” also picked up on the over defensive attitude and referenced a certain word that they find offensive, as do many others, the C bomb which you drop without a moments hesitation. I do hope now in the spirit of being empathetic and to set an example you will refrain from using such word ever again in a tweet, blog or post…lol Of course I am joking as that would contradict my whole argument. However, maybe you finally see my point…but obviously I must be arrogant and patronising as I didn’t agree with what you said. Hmmm….pathetic.A logical, coherent argument would have been refreshing but no, much better to dismiss a point of view with no grounds or explanation, labelling the person patronising and arrogant.

            Why don’t you try practising what you preach and stop continually hiding behind” you know where the unfollow button is” you complete hypocrite.

          • ladyarse

            There you go with your assumptions again. I’m actually working and it seems you’re the only one looking attention.

          • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

            Apologies for being able to multi task and write. It appears once again all you appear to be able to do is repeat yourself.
            No, not looking for attention I didn’t post the blog to get a reaction in the first place and then complain when people debated my points, you did. I was still looking for a reasonable explanation to your earlier distasteful comments of which you still haven’t furnished one. Shame you can’t back up your big mouth. I see you now taking time to address people’s comments in the appropriate manner at last…well done, how privileged for them (now that’s patronising).Haha. I will leave you now to make some new enemies, misinterpret some more points and enjoy the sycophants….

          • ladyarse

            If you hadn’t been so arrogant, patronising and antagonistic in the first place you might have got a reasonable debate.

          • ladyarse

            I also have no desire to have a conversation with you as the way you interact is irritating in the extreme. By all means take this as proof you were right and evidence that I am all the things you have accused me of. My character knows exactly what it is thank you very much, it needs no help from you, your assumptions, and your patronising nature.
            Feel free to reply to this with yet another essay about how I am the one seeking attention.

        • ladyarse

          I see no need to defend myself because I know what I said and even said how glad I was that your friend was able to come through her ordeal. You read what you want and take whatever meaning you wish.

  • disqus_sA3ZWfy87v

    “But please, tell us again how your experience is the only one that matters.”
    Doesn’t sound like there is much respect there for what she went through to me??

  • InterestedReader

    Interesting debate… Not sure why you’re being so defensive when surely the point of this blog post is to inspire debate? It sounds to me like two intelligent people putting their points across and being passionate about their beliefs. For me, I think we need to laugh at awful things to take their power away. If your friends are sadly so traumatised by the word at the football then they need to seek help, which I really hope they have gotten already. There’s a bigger issue here with men thinking women are asking for it by wearing short skirts or being drunk or women being too afraid to report it for fear of being called a liar. Debating a word is a start, but let’s look at the REAL issue. The issue that women aren’t pieces of meat. A word is a word is a word. Language evolves and changes all the time. Personally I find your overuse of the ‘c’ word on Twitter offensive and stopped regularly following you for it but I would never expect Twitter, for example, to ban the use of the word because it offends some people. I’m sure you would be the first to complain if they did. Why should a word be banned because a few people find it offensive? That’s what makes society so rich. Men and women across the world have NO freedom–shown by the party goers in the Middle East recently being killed just for listening to music. We should be celebrating our right to debate, to disagree and, yes, to sometimes offend (within reason).

    • ladyarse

      Thank you for your points and I appreciate you taking the time to leave your comment. My defensive position was in reaction to a lengthy and antagonistic comment.

      My post was based on experiences that I have had with many women who have been very important in my life and the feedback they have given me. It was not meant to represent all women and was certainly not meant to exclude the fact that men can also be a victim of this most heinous of crimes. Had accusations not been levied at me in the previous comment I might have found myself more willing to engage in a debate with the poster.

      I understand your view that a word is a word, but many of the women who I have spoken to about this feel that when the word ‘rape’ is used to describe a football match their experience is somehow trivialised. Perhaps that will change in the future, but for now, they find it disturbing and part of a society which, in the main, does not take rape as seriously as it should.

      The ‘C’ word to which you refer is offensive to some people, I know this, but it is not a word that conjures up memories of often savage sexual assaults. Nobody is asking to ban anything, simply asking that people give thought to a word the are using and the meaning it might have for other people. Many people who previously used this word without giving thought to it have changed their view upon reading this post. I simply gave my opinion on why I think people shouldn’t use it in this context.

      We might need to ‘laugh at awful things’ to take their power away, but that is an incredibly simplistic view. I certainly don’t find it funny when someone calls me a ‘faggot’ and laughing at it might make it less annoying to me, but it certainly isn’t going to change the views of someone who is homophobic. Only by challenging these things do we seek to make real changes.

      • Anon

        Interesting, so you’re a gay guy? Writing about rape from a woman’s point of view?

        • ladyarse

          Yes. Or I could be a gay woman who has been called just about every derogatory word for a gay person there is. You decide.

          • anon

            No, really? People call women ‘faggots’?? Nuts–hate the term but I’m surprised it’s applied like that. Actually I don’t know why I am, people are nuts. Obviously it’s never OK, men or women, but my experience of the gay community is with men and their struggle.

  • stan1112

    I agree 100%

  • DJ

    Here in the United States the word “cunt” is extremely rare to hear and considered extremely offensive whereas in comparison to England, it seems to be a common insult. It is interesting to see which words come and go in societies slang.

  • Uhtred

    How can the word Rape be seen as worse than murder? … obviously murder is the worse crime out there but you say this is perfectly acceptable to use in a flippant non related manner…
    Besides I think it is a relevant word for many situations in football.. please take my below example for instance.

    A defender is caught napping by a striker and their team concedes a goal as a consequence..

    The defender got raped is perfectly fine in my opinion and very relevant … The defender had the ball .. someone took it off him without his permission … that left him feeling weak , vulnerable and embarrassed and full of self pity …

    • ladyarse

      I don’t even know where to start with this comment….

  • ladyarse

    Thanks for your intelligent input. Appreciate it.

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